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The truth about diacetyl

Discussion in 'Vape Media' started by Derick, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. Derick

    Derick Co-Owner Skyblue Vaping Premium Vendor

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    "To summarize their findings, they found that the levels of diacetyl in tobacco were significantly higher than those found in the factories where the popcorn lung was contracted, bringing into question the diacetyl as the cause of the condition. Further, they found that smoking cigarettes, regardless of the higher levels of diacetyl has not been shown to cause popcorn lung. Looking at e-juice in relation to tobacco levels of diacetyl the Nicotine & Tobacco Research 5 group conducted a study Evaluation of Electronic Cigarette Liquids and published these results, “The purpose of this study was to evaluate sweet-flavoured electronic cigarette (EC) liquids for the presence of diacetyl (DA). DA was found in 74.2% of the samples. They were lower than the strict safety limits for occupational exposure and 110 times lower compared to smoking respectively.” This tells us first, that there is diacetyl in analog cigarettes at 110 times higher levels than those found in the e-juices they studied. Secondly this tells us the amounts they found in the e-juice were within the safety limits of exposure."


    http://blog.mtbakervapor.com/the-truth-about-diacetyl/
     
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  2. arthster

    arthster Staff Member Moderator

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    Vat so minister of health...
     
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  3. PapaSmurf

    PapaSmurf Bringer of Calm ... Staff Member Admin

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    Naais
     
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  4. huffnpuff

    huffnpuff Member

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    Old rant and classic deflection, the tests are relative to the juices that were tested. This is not something to be downplayed and taken as gospel.

    In reality there are and have been some opportunists and even big brands the grossly violated the simple "safety limits of exposure", so keep this in mind before thinking that DA is a non-issue in ejuice. These operators are simply abusing the "healthier alternative" credo of vaping just to make a quick buck, but they're screwing the industry, because if the industry cannot self-regulate stuff like this, then governments will.
     
  5. fractious

    fractious Admin

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    Have to disagree here....stuff with DA tastes sooooo much better than the stuff without - these "operators" are simply providing us with the best tasting juice they can.

    We should rather require stating that it contains it instead of trying to move away from it - personally I'm aware of the risks and I welcome them, because I'm not trying to lead a healthy lifestyle...if that were the case I'd stop vaping altogether. Healthier is all we can claim as vapers - not healthy as an absolute.

    The truth is we consume lots of stuff that contains things that are bad for us...but we do so knowingly and because these so called "bad stuff" adds something to the experience (improves taste, longer shelf life, etc).

    As far as I'm concerned all we need is for them to state when juices contain these elements....and almost all of our local juice makers do :)
     
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  6. imiago

    imiago Active Member

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    Hi, Everyone.

    I came across a reference to a reddit article on TOF (Posted by user @Alex) and thought I would share it here as well. Let me know if I let something out to give credit where it is due. I will insert the link to TOF if that is okay?

    Here is the link to the original: http://www.ecigssa.co.za/some-of-the-hard-science-on-popcorn-lung-and-diacetyl.t17509/#post-298627

    What I like about this is it links to the original academic research done instead of some blog article with opinions, I think a lot of the science behind the topic and conclusions are left out and this damages the validity and reputation of research in general. I like going to the source information. (I am currently living in two worlds, the real day to day working world and the academic world with my Post Grad). I think having the actual legitimate research available helps with fighting against the misinformation out there that SO many people are eating up. I know we can't convince them all, but... I suppose I am an idealist... :oops:

    The original post can be found here https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic...some_of_the_hard_science_on_popcorn_lung_and/

    And here I have copied the original post for ease of access.

    Some of the hard science on popcorn lung and diacetyl self.electronic_cigarette

    Submitted 12 hours ago by A0G

    After seeing the 15th article, I decided to see if I could find, straight from the source, not a blog, the facts of the matter. It's important to have independent reputable sources when convincing others, as they'll generally condemn any other source as having some kind of agenda.

    So I set out to find the real numbers on diacetyl in cigarettes vs vapes, as well as some verification that smoking hasn't been related to Bronchiolitis Obliterans (BO) or "popcorn lung".

    Here's a link to the study everyone's up in arms about:

    Source 1 - http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/wp-content/uploads/advpub/2015/12/ehp.1510185.acco.pdf

    From the "Results" section:

    Diacetyl was detected above the laboratory limit of detection 39 of the 51 flavors tested, ranging from < limit of qualification (LOQ) to 239 µg/e-cigarette.

    (Source 1)

    That's from a minimum of none to a maximum of 239 micrograms (1 millionth of a gram).

    Next thing is to verify the diacetyl levels in cigarettes. From the NIH website:

    Fourteen commercial cigarette brands and one reference cigarette released 301–433 μg of diacetyl per cigarette.

    Source 2 - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137810/

    That's a minimum higher than the ecig maximum.

    Finally, a source for diacetyl from cigarettes not being linked to BO:

    Further, because smoking has not been shown to be a risk factor for bronchiolitis obliterans, our findings are inconsistent with claims that diacetyl and/or 2,3-pentanedione exposure are risk factors for this disease."

    Source 3 - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24635357

    The only remaining question is exactly what kind of ecigs they used. Many flavors were from ecigs produced by "large cigarette companies":

    We evaluated 51 flavors, including all available flavors from three large cigarette companies (Brands A, B, and C, with 2, 2, and 7 flavors, respectively)

    (Source 1)

    Interestingly enough, scrolling to the bottom of the study with the actual results table, we find that brands A, B and C, the ones produced by "large cigarette companies" contain the ecig that had the highest diacetyl amount, that 239 µg/e-cigarette we saw earlier. The highest diacetyl concentration we see from any ecig not made by a "large cigarette company" is 38.4 µg/e-cigarette.

    Further, the entire study was done based on "flavors we deemed were appealing to youth" (Source 1). This alone is enough to call into question the objectivity of this study, as there is no purpose behind that criteria other than to inflame an argument or provoke outrage. This point is strengthened by the fact that a large number of flavors they selected have names that in no possible interpretation are meant to appeal to youth, such as:

    Classic (x2), Menthol (x4), Original, Java Jolt, Gold
     
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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  7. baksteen8168

    baksteen8168 Useful Idiot Staff Member Moderator

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    I see people are still scared to reference TOF on here. Feel free to link to them, we have no problem with people mentioning ecigssa in their posts. We are not a monopoly and we feel that vapers should have a choice in what site they visit and in what they want their posts to reflect. :)
     
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  8. imiago

    imiago Active Member

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    I figured as much. I have added the link to ecigssa. It might be TOF, but this is TRF! :D
     
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  9. Derick

    Derick Co-Owner Skyblue Vaping Premium Vendor

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    Found this blog post where the blogger graphically represented how much Diacetyl we are getting in compared to smoking and also compared to factory workers inhaling the stuff for 8 hours a day. He references his sources in the post. Please note that the factory worker one has to be increased in size by 10, but he did not have enough room in his pic :)

    http://blog.thedripclub.com/everybo...aping-and-popcorn-lung-again-so-heres-a-graph


    Diacetyl.jpg
     
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  10. Derick

    Derick Co-Owner Skyblue Vaping Premium Vendor

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    On a personal note - I've never understood the obsession with Diacetyl. Studies pop up every 6 months or so with data obviously designed as scare tactics. They never compare the Diacetyl in e-liquids with the cigarette or factory worker exposure.

    To date, not one case of popcorn lung has been reported from smoking, it takes factory workers 8 hours a day for decades of breathing just about pure Diacetyl to contract popcorn lung (and even then the CDC admitted that it was 'probably' the cause, not proven, not scientific fact)

    PG and VG both contain Arsenic (or is allowed to contain Arsenic by USP/BP standards), never mind that nicotine is way more poisonous than arsenic - yet everyone is happy to vape those.

    For me, it is harm reduction, health improvement. I am proof that it is better for me, even with Diacetyl. The majority of scientists now agree that vaping is safer than smoking.(95% seems to be the agreed number) Can it be 100% safe? Nope. Breathing in anything other than air into your lungs (what your lungs are intended to breathe) will cause some sort of issue eventually. I'm just improving my chances of getting some sort of lung problem by 95%.

    If you want 100% - move to a mountain cabin, away from any big city, use a horse and cart and eat only veggies you grow in your own garden.

    Me, I'll be sitting here vaping delicious Diacetyl, eating a steak from the braai, wrapped in bacon and enjoying my life :)

    Should I die a few years earlier because of my choice, then so be it. Then I have had a good life, full of enjoyment, not fear.


    “Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
    in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud
    of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
    "Wow! What a Ride!”
    Hunter S. Thompson, The Proud Highway:
    Saga of a Desperate Southern Gentleman, 1955-1967
     
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  11. imiago

    imiago Active Member

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    @Derick I agree 100%. Life is not about who goes at it longest but who enjoys it most.

    I do not want to unnecessarily shorten it vis-a-vis smoking. But I like enjoying some vices.

    My only reason for avoiding Diacetyl is my reaction to it.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  12. arthster

    arthster Staff Member Moderator

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    They are loosing the fact fight. the facts prove heavily on vaping side and the only real thing left to hammer on is the chemical compound of the vapor. and then also the evidence there has been in favor of the vape. the only thing they really have left to bitch about is Diacetyl.

    As for the only 100% safe thing to inhale is air. well there as well I have my opinion. People that never smoked before are Lately dying from throat and esophagus cancer.

    In our search to bend nature to suite us there is absolutely nothing left that is 100% safe. nothing on this planet has been left alone. We have genetically modified (On purpose and inadvertently) everything on this planet that is life sustaining.

    The air we breath has gone to hell. might as well flavor it.:D
     
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  13. Mark

    Mark Staff Member Moderator

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    Ok now I WANT a juice with diacetyl to taste the buttery goodness.

    What juices have it?
     
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  14. Derick

    Derick Co-Owner Skyblue Vaping Premium Vendor

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    haha, well most flavour manufacturers have removed all flavours that have Diacetyl added, but Acetoin & Acetylpropionyl can metabolize into trace amounts of Diacetyl during the manufacturing of the flavour molecule.

    You can read what TFA has to say about it here: http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/flavorsworkshop/custard.html

    So basically any of the flavours with AT and AP might have a bit of Diacetyl in it.

    Or you could fry up some butter and smell that - Butter has loads of Diacetyl (so chefs around the world will soon all be getting popcorn lung if these scare articles are to be believed) :)
     
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  15. Mark

    Mark Staff Member Moderator

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    Thinking back now, the only "buttery" juice I remember having was the grand master peanut butter one... Remember thinking to myself how buttery smooth it was... Maybe that had it?
     
  16. Derick

    Derick Co-Owner Skyblue Vaping Premium Vendor

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    Could very well be. Custards and creams all contain AT and AP, so they might have some too
     
  17. Gazza

    Gazza Active Member

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    I would bet that air filtered by inhaling it through my ecig is healthier than this smog kak we breath every day.
     
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  18. arthster

    arthster Staff Member Moderator

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    Well moisture traps dirt, hence the reason your nose is full of snot. Sooooo I think you might be on to something. :anirofl::anirofl::anirofl:
     
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